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| L.L. Bean's "Made in China" Knock-Off of a "Made in New England" Product |
Ivy Style ran a great story called Below The Belt?: Lands’ End Clones.... Christian wrote on the latest example of large clothing corporations brazenly copying designs from small, US designers and manufacturers, and outsourcing the production work to China in the process.
I had posted another example of this, L.L. Bean's Maine Isle Flip-Flops, knocking off Eliza B.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants. And we have come to expect cheap, no-name knock-offs of famous brands. But when the famous brands themselves do the knocking-off so shamelessly, and then shift production away from the United States as part of the process, while spending their vast PR and marketing dollars on highlighting their own (increasingly tenuous) US-credentials ("Maine Isle Flip-Flops"), at the least consumers ought to be very aware of the choices they are making.
*** Update - This post received the following comment from Cecil Lyon. I will similarly post any comment, unedited, that L.L. Bean cares to send me. ***
"I just became aware of this article. For the record my name is Cecil Lyon. I own and operate Eliza B.
We have been making sandals for 15 years. Originally for fisherman in Florida and eventually for ladies' boutiques. We were the first ribbon sandal and for many years the only sandal with a "toe ribbon". And yes we have been successful. And, if you are successful it is likely some of your ideas will be "borrowed". So it goes.
L.L.Bean was quite brazen with their borrowing. I had been trying for a decade to get a meeting with one of their buyers. No luck. Then one day a buyer called and asked to see samples of our sandals. Could we overnight them? We were jubilant. Finally a chance to meet with L.L.Bean. I waited three days and followed up with a phone call. Couldn't get through. Called four more times. Buyer was unavailable. Four or five months later I opened an L.L.Bean catalog and there they were. Perfect little knock offs of our sandals. Right down to the millimeter.
At some level one must admire this methodology. It is ruthlessly efficient. Almost Germanic. Free samples. Free shipping and free design work. As they say in Maine, "wicked smart". I guess I am bitter. I feel like a chump. I will take solace in the fact that I have employed a goodly number of Americans and have enjoyed watching them raise their families. The Bean folks. Well they can enjoy their moo goo gai pan.
There is an exquisite irony to all of this. How does L.L. bean find out about companies like mine in the first place? Probably by reading blogs like this."
*** Update 2: Lands' End decided to discontinue Knockoff. (Ivy Style Link). L.L. Bean remains unchanged. ***
79 comments:
Very disapointing to hear....I am a fan of the LL Bean Maine Isle flip flops, but now have to think twice.
Thanks for sharing this.
I love the Eliza B sandals and feel they are worth the extra cost. There's currently a 20% off 'Burning of the Socks' Daily Deal until the 27th: http://elizab.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=EB&Category_Code=daily-special
Bitsy
Knock-offs of anything are just a total bane. Muffy provides a sterling example of how to handle it: Just vote with your checkbook by accepting no substitutes!
As someone who lead design teams in corporate America for years, before now owning my own clothing company, I know this story all too well. Season after season we spent designing original product for our employers- product based on our own concepts and development. More times than not, in the end we found ourselves facing merchandising staffs who had already filled much of their orders with knock-offs from "samples". It seemed that the validation of the designs already selling in a competitor's line was more important than originality.
More power to you, KJP! Remember that you are the originator. Your quality designs will stand the test of time- long after the corporations have continued down the road, chasing their own tails.
Although I can understand the anger from KJP and many other brands for ripping off a design it occurs quite often and it is reality. Take a look at some of the most renowned designers in the world such as Ralph Lauren, and his polo. If you go to cheap stores they often try to replicate it. Or perhaps burberry when companies utilize their signature plaid in their products. Every designer endures the copying. If the brand is thriving that well and if the quality is good people will still buy your product. Don't we always want the "real" thing?
I understand that these products are USA made but the reality is nothing is ever going to change with overseas manufacturing and rip off designs no matter how much you pout about it. It's life.
Dear Muffy:
We all should view the China/Jobs situation from the larger perspective. We paid the price of peace with millions of jobs and saved the lives the millions who would have been killed in a war over Taiwan. A war that now will never happen because too many Chinese Generals have Swiss bank accounts.
That being said, I avoid Chinese leather products because my wife once bought a Chinese made watchband that gave her a rash. It had apparently not been rinsed properly after tanning.
All the best,
Prep West
Anonymous 4:07: I hope KJP generates such significant bad buzz for Lands' End that all companies with brands worth protecting will avoid such "strip-mining" practices in the future. I applaud Christian and Muffy and lots of Facebook and Twitter people for working towards informing consumers.
I don't really know when something becomes a "knock-off". I've seen flip-flops in the style of your Eliza B's for years and years, from all kinds of retailers. Sure, LLB probably did copy them--but who did Eliza B. get them from? Should Brooks Brothers be outraged at all companies selling made-in-China button-down collars? And what about the polo player from whom they stole it?
If the concern is that these big companies will put the little guy out of business, I'm not worried--I don't cross-shop when I find a product I like, and I bet many other readers feel similarly. Our purchases represent the outcome of weighing factors including quality, style, value, and, for some, values. If your calculus has led you to Eliza B. when innumerable similar sandals are available elsewhere, you're probably unlikely to switch to the L.L. Bean version even if it's half the price.
The Ivy Stye article included a long statement from KJP explaining the efforts that he put into manufacturing his belt. If his those efforts contributed to style, value, and quality, than he will be doing fine four months from now when the Land's End version is on the sale rack.
WRJ - In my opinion, I do not believe there is any murkiness to the explicitness of Lands' End knock-off. Just my 2 cents.
I love My Eliza B.'s and Kiel James Patrick, but it's really the free market.
I think it is sleazy and reinforces my growing perception that these vendors have been reduced to soulless holding companies. I prefer to buy from organizations I like and trust.
@Chris: For what it's worth, I agree that the Lands End belt looks quite like a blatant knockoff. I was attempting to make the broader point that, in my opinion (and particularly when dealing with classically styled clothes), there's little in the way of proprietary design and a lot of variation on common themes--which, to me, isn't knocking-off. My point about KJP was that if the domestic production, scrupulous attention to materials and construction, etc. that he described result in a better product, he will continue to attract consumers who value those products.
This just splits my hairs, this massive transfer of wealth and global leveling..... Might be a bit more palatable if it weren't shamefully laced in deceit.
How long has Eliza B been making flip-flops? I have only learned about them over the past two years. I love them for their comfort and choice of fabric/ribbon. However, I selected them because they look identical to flip flops I purchased from J.Crew 7 years ago. I still wear them today as well as my Eliza Bs.
I do not like copy cats, but I cannot blame companies for trying to give clients what they want. Are the small designers copyrighting their products?
Muffy,
You are right on the mark regarding other companies copying Eliza B. She makes the most comfortable and darling flip flops. Unfortunately, main stream America does not want to (or can not ) pay the price for a product of quality that will last for many seasons. What the small companies need to do is really look for ways to brand their products so that the copied product becomes inferior.
TessSpencer@woh.rr.com
Muffy,
I just purchased two belts from Eliza B and told them I found them through your blog (I must admit that I did NOT know of them beforehand so I gave you all the credit and the sales representative, whose name I did not get did seem quite astonished, but also grateful). IT was a genuine pleasure to do business with them over the phone and even though the young woman informed me that my belts might be 2 or 3 weeks in process, before delivery, I did not mind. I really enjoy doing business with my fellow Americans, buying products that THEY make and sell and I don't mind paying for quality. I spent 28 years in the military and all of my uniforms, shoes, boots and other gear were of American manufacture. There is NO reason why civilian clothes can't be made here again. I remember when clothes from China first arrived in the USA; I refused to buy any because back then, I still had choices. But when my favorite stores like Brooks Brothers and LL Bean offshore the clothes, what is one to do? How do we reverse all of this? That is the question we as consumers ALL must answer.
It's unfortunate that so many people brush this kind of thing off as 'business as usual'. I'm all for free market capitalism, but that doesn't mean I support a large corporation blatantly ripping somebody else off and undercutting the market by offering a cheaper version of a lesser quality.
Corporations like LL Bean and Land's End can make their products all they want with cheap foreign labor, but they shouldn't be producing somebody else's work. This just discourages people from starting businesses here in America. And for every small company that goes out of business because a bigger manufacturer takes their ideas and ships production over seas, a countless number of American jobs are lost. A business like KJP growing in popularity could potentially employ a large number of Americans. The more sales they make the more raw materials they need, increasing the business for other American companies who will need to (hopefully) employ more Americans. But Land's End taking their customer base with a knock-off won't allow this to happen, and that's the real tragedy here.
Maybe you don't have the means to buy the KJP belt. Times are rough and many people don't. Maybe you don't even like anything KJP or similarly situated designers are producing, that's your prerogative. This doesn't mean you should accept or even applaud (as some are doing) LE for what is essentially stealing.
LL Bean, LE and other large designers that are doing this are putting American money, American entrepreneurs and American jobs at risk all because they're too cheap to design their own products.
If you don't see what the problem with any of this is then I'm sure you won't be upset if you were to lose your job because a bigger company took what you were doing and did it themselves with cheaper, foreign labor.
Hopefully word about this will spread rapidly and people will opt to buy from the Made in America companies like KJP. Who knows, this could drive more new customers to him and others that otherwise wouldn't have known they existed.
Here's to hoping this turns out for the best for the All-American companies.
12 - Well said. It is also sad the Lands' End calculates it is better to employee design copiers than designers.
Wow, that L.L. Bean example is pretty shocking. I assume that since you know the Eliza B. brand well, and have long watched what L.L. Bean has to offer, that the example goes in the "direction" you suggest. (Those flip-flops from L.L. Bean have been around for quite awhile, far longer than I have known of the Eliza B. brand, so I have to make sure it's actually L.L. Bean copying Eliza B. and not the other way around, before I can get too outraged. But, given the downward direction of L.L. Bean, I would not be surprised.)
As for the "Maine Isle" name... well, that's just typical L.L. Bean. As you well know, many of their products have "Maine" names, to evoke the feeling of the place, not to suggest that they are made in Maine. Although as I wrote in response to your post with the poll about L.L. Bean, there are some pretty egregious examples of L.L. Bean using careful wording to suggest that something is still made in Maine, when it's not, and then refusing to publish negative reviews of foreign-made products which have fallen apart. They seem in particular not to like it if you clearly state where the "imported" item is made.
That said, pretty much all design is derivative. Everyone is "inspired" by someone else. KJP didn't invent rope bracelets and belts, and Eliza B. (or L.L. Bean) didn't invent ribbon flip-flops. Everyone steals from everyone. (I must say, the KJP belt pictured looks MUCH higher-quality than the Lands' End one, which is a sad state of affairs. And to steal even the positioning of the item in the marketing photo is ridiculous.)
You know, there's a whole great big world outside of New England filled with people who are probably not aware of the "originals" and only know Land's End, LL Bean and Ralph Lauren.
It all comes down to money in the end anyways. The knock-offs are cheaper to produce overseas and sell for a cheaper price. And if I have a limited clothing budget, guess which one I'll probably buy.
Reminds me of a scene in Sex and the City when the girls go to L.A. and Sam buys a fake Fendi. Carrie was going to buy one too but decides she rather wait and save for a real Fendi than have a fake because a real one would be 'special'. That is how I feel about KJP's belts. I cannot afford one of his belts right now and a $40 look a like would be sooooo tempting but, I would always know it was a fake and I would never really be happy with the belt. I will wait. I much rather have the real deal.
Just to piggyback on a few earlier comments...the median US household income is, what, $50,000? Those people have to shop somewhere and while I suspect many of them would like to buy American made, it is simply not realistic. And often the options they have really are not great. I don't know what the economics would be of LLBean, Lands End, etc moving production back to the US, but if the prices went up significantly all those average American customers would move to shopping somewhere else where the quality would be even worse and the look...not good. LLBean is proving a service to people who want to look respectable but simply can't afford to buy the Eliza B and KJP products of the world. Having said that, those who can afford American made (even if it means saving or buying less) should try to do so.
On another note, I think Eliza B has been making flip flops for at least 10 years.
Finally, I have mentioned before that I used to work in retail, for one of the companies mentioned favorably on this blog. The products are mostly American made and I was always impressed with the quality. However, when you are dealing with a classic look very little is original and you can be sure that all of the companies are watching each other very closely for ideas. (We used to have a "spy" from a competitor come in and shop with us.)
The single question is, would Lands' End or L.L. Bean or Ralph Lauren rather this information not be featured on a national news program? If they would not mind, it is a valid strategy. If they would mind, especially in this age of Web 2.0 and social media, it probably is a poor choice. (As I told my 10 year old, if you are sneaking something, you probably shouldn't be doing it.)
This subject always reminds me of the age old question "which came first...."
Did we become a throw away society when all the manufacturing (and a lot of the quality) jobs were shipped overseas and the result is a retail environment full of dreck which doesn't last long? Or were the manufacturing jobs shipped overseas because we became a throw away society and valued quantity over quality?
I think we have to stop with the China bashing. Something "Made in China" doesn't necessarily means it's an inferior product. Some of the best products we use in our daily lives are made in China and are very useful and of good quality. Similarly, everything "Made in U.S.A." is not of superior quality; case in point being U.S. manufactured automobiles. We have to judge products individually considering all factors not just a "Made in China" label. If such is the case, why does this blog and most of all preppy blogs appreciate Ralph Lauren, Brooks Brothers, etc. when their designs are also "inspired" (read copied) and also manufactured in China?! I think if quality is maintained and the product is solid, from a consumer's point of view, there's no harm in buying products made in China.
I'm glad to see that there are a number of balanced views on this issue.
"Made in China" generally means more affordable products for Americans. In my own experience, the gap in quality between Chinese and American made goods actually isn't all that huge, and it continues to narrow.
Many of the people working in these factories in China do so because, bad as it may be, its better than the subsistance farming they were previously engaged in.
I would just like to point out another aspect to this discussion: wouldn't you say that companies such as Land's End and LL Bean have a sort of "Americana" image? So... outsourcing your products to China or elsewhere is a sort of...fraud? Just a thought.
does anyone know where the JCrew/ Jcrew factory flip flops are made?
@Patti - I was curious so I called them. They said (and it took them over eleven minutes and conversations with three different people) that their flip flops ($26.50) were made in China.
I sincerely must laugh at some of these comments. Let's say even of these designers patented their product. That only last a certain amount of time before the patent is released to the market. Anyone can copy and slightly alter a design get over it. No one cares. You don't see drug compabies trying to make headlines because Walmart made acetaminophen from tylenol
The comment "You don't see drug companies trying to make headlines because Walmart made acetaminophen from tylenol" is an interesting one. Drug companies put a huge amount of investment in development, obsess constantly about when their patents expire, and do everything they can, including lobbying Congress, to protect and extend the life of their IP and their patents. When the patents do expire, drug companies put forth huge marketing efforts to keep people loyal. So I would suggest it is safe to say big pharma is not lax about their designs.
When I was at prep school in the 70’s we used to say that Ralph Lauren got his ideas from the LL bean catalog. At fashion design school in the 80’s we heard stories (from faculty) of student work showing up on the runway after a big name designer had reviewed that student’s work. Queries as to why nothing was done were answered with a shrug. They felt there was no recourse.
Selling high-end designer goods in the 90’s, we were taught that designers can legally protect their branding, but not the designs. There are a few notable exceptions—Chanel and Barry Kieselstein-Cord I believe have been successful in the courtroom—but at great expense. With the high end goods it is easier to accept knock offs because the designer knows that the person buying the $50 copy was never going to buy the $1500 original, so they haven’t taken away a customer.
Back then, the originals were made in the US, France, Italy and Germany, and the knock offs were coming from Asia. Now the originals and the copies are often made in the same factories in China-- a country that blatantly ignores our copyright laws, patent laws, trademark laws and manufacturing safety standards. We know this, yet American companies continue sending work to these factories. And then we are shocked and appalled when we have lead in our kids’ toys and clothes, in our medicines and toothpaste, in our candy, and in our dog treats. And the American companies are outraged when their patented technology appears at Wal-mart for a tenth of the price, or their factory overruns (or knock offs of their knock offs) flood eBay.
If KJP is getting knocked off this early in his career, he’s doing everything right. His job now is to continue to educate the consumer as to why his product is superior. Discerning consumers, like ourselves, are paying attention.
I just became aware of this article. For the record my name is Cecil Lyon. I own and operate Eliza B.
We have been making sandals for 15 years. Originally for fisherman in Florida and eventually for ladies' boutiques. We were the first ribbon sandal and for many years the only sandal with a "toe ribbon". And yes we have been successful. And, if you are successful it is likely some of your ideas will be "borrowed". So it goes.
L.L.Bean was quite brazen with their borrowing. I had been trying for a decade to get a meeting with one of their buyers. No luck. Then one day a buyer called and asked to see samples of our sandals. Could we overnight them? We were jubilant. Finally a chance to meet with L.L.Bean. I waited three days and followed up with a phone call. Couldn't get through. Called four more times. Buyer was unavailable. Four or five months later I opened an L.L.Bean catalog and there they were. Perfect little knock offs of our sandals. Right down to the millimeter.
At some level one must admire this methodology. It is ruthlessly efficient. Almost Germanic. Free samples. Free shipping and free design work. As they say in Maine, "wicked smart". I guess I am bitter. I feel like a chump. I will take solace in the fact that I have employed a goodly number of Americans and have enjoyed watching them raise their families. The Bean folks. Well they can enjoy their moo goo gai pan.
There is an exquisite irony to all of this. How does L.L. bean find out about companies like mine in the first place? Probably by reading blogs like this.
Cecil, I think you have every right to be upset. Those who take the attitude of "que sera, sera" are in my opinion misfiring in some area of their brain that has to do with empathy, sensitivity, or perhaps moral reasoning.
Cecil: Thanks for chiming in. It's unfortunate that copying is rampant in the fashion industry, but that's just the way it goes. Fortunately, there are plenty of us out there who value quality over price, and will always prefer to buy "the original." Your business (and KJPs) will remain vital as long as you stay true to your vision. Keep up the great work!
@Cecil Lyon:
Wow. That is unbelievable. I can't believe those tactics, and your story really makes me reevaluate my previous thoughts on the subject.
I just counted eight pairs of your flip flops in my closet- they are basically all I wear in the summer. Someone gave me a pair of knock-offs a few years ago and I have never worn them- the quality wasn't there and, most importantly to me, the comfort couldn't compare. Yours just provide support that can't be matched. Hope that is some consolation. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Cecil; you shouldn't feel like a chump. You're the 4th person I've known or read about that has had the exact same thing happen to them. (Not with LLBean but other well known companies). Word needs to get out to businesses like yours about this outrageous business practice.
If they liked your sandals so much, they could have bought a pair and copied it. The fact that these big companies lead small businesses into thinking they will carry their lines and then do something like this is.... well, if it isn't criminal, it's certainaly immoral.
By the way, the Bean sandals might look like yours, but I doubt they are as comfortable or hold up like yours do. I bought 5 pairs last summer; my daughter bought 8 and they are very, very nice. In fact, yesterday I was trying to justify buying a few more and your post is all the reason I need to do so! Thanks for making such a good product and to the buyers at LLBean all I can say is your actions will eventually catch up with you. As of today, I have no intention of buying anything from you again.
*sara*
Enjoy their moo goo gai pan?
Mr. Lyon,
Wow,what a story! I ordered from your site at Christmas based on Muffy's recommendation and the leather belts are beautiful and my husband has really enjoyed them.We also got a dog leash and I have meant to send a picture of Rosie showing it off.(You would never see a collar on her since she is a Bernese Mountain Dog)..It was amazing that it was custom made and cost no more than a nice pet store leash.I would have really liked to have ordered the custom flats but since there are no stores near here to try them on I did not want to risk it(also an amazing price BTW),I will try the sandals though after reading what LL Bean did. Someone noted that people from other parts of the country would not recognize a lot of these products as being knock offs and i certainly would fall into that category.Your prices are really quite competitive and the value is excellent.I have gotten so disgusted with the quality of clothes and I disagree with the person who said that there is little quality difference with Chinese made goods.Brands, especially in shoes,that used to be quite fine are just junk.They just fall apart.Anyone who doesn't think that there are quality issues with Chinese made goods should subscribe to the Consumer Protection Recall list.I do and it is probably 99% Chinese made goods-with known American Mfg.brand names. Obviously there is a problem with oversight, Anyway,all this to say I plan to order from you again and I have become someone who actively seeks out and purchases American made goods. They do exist and frequently cost no more .May you have success with your business.A mid-Atlantic reader of the blog
@ Cecil: If I may add my 2 cents, LL Bean's flip flop can't hold a candle to Eliza B! Quality and "adorableness" does not compare, and their sole is really ugly with the colored stripe running through it. Rest assured, you are the winner here. Viva Connecticut!
Mr. Lyon- I have been a loyal Eliza B customer ever since I discovered them at the Darien Sport Shop and Edward Tunick in Darien. They are unmatched in their quality and being a lifelong resident of CT appreciate the fact that you are a local company. LL Bean will no longer get any of my business after learning this about them
As a technology entrepreneur, I too always have to deal with knock-offs and lower priced competition from larger more established players. Our innovation provides us with only a limited time frame and an edge. Our solution to growth is to keep innovating. We even have patents, but do I want to spend millions defending some of my ideas? No really. I am more interested in keeping on the edge of the curve. Now in fairness and I think this should be pointed out. I went to the Eliza B. website and I see you make canvas totes just like L.L. Bean. I am sure they are not lamenting that you have taken their iconic product and re-produced it yourself. We all live off each other and borrow as desired.
I completely agree with the original post and most of the commenter's thoughts. Outsourcing is a huge problem in America and it must be curbed for America to regain a sustainable, healthy economy. It is disheartening to hear that LL Bean, a company noted for its originality has succumbed to the knock-off mentality.
However, I am also a Chinese-American and Eliza B.'s "moo goo gai pan" joke, while I understand that it is a joke, is not appreciated. It is this sort of backhanded racism that keeps me from feeling completely comfortable in a country that I was born and raised in.
Other than this singular off color remark, I have always enjoyed your blog.
I am buying from Eliza B. I was just about to "design" a pair when I saw this. Lovin' Made in America!!!
I am thankful for blogs like the Daily Prep because it helps me to be a better educated consumer. I am at a point in my life where I have the financial means to buy quality items. I would much rather purchase a few things from small companies like KJP and Eliza B. than buy anything from the mega companies.
LOL.
You should see L.L.Bean's response to my comment on their Facebook page. At least it's better than the response I got from Lands' End about copying KJP's belt. That is to say, no response whatsoever.
It's one thing to knock off someone else's product. It's a completely different thing for the buyer of a big company to call a small, locally owned business person who is trying to build that business and lead the owner to believe the big company is interested in carrying their product.
Yes, I'm repeating myself but I can't get that scenario out of my mind; obviously I'm terribly naive. It's simply unacceptable and so un-necessary. If you want to knock-off a product, at least have the decency to buy the product; don't call the owner and ask him/her to send samples to you.
They may do it in a very subtle manner, but LLBean still tries to portray itself as an all American company who holds onto good Yankee values, blah, blah, blah. I guess lying and stealing is now considered a good Yankee trait?
*sara*
It is exciting that, because of social networking, companies have to make a choice between appearing good and being bad. The common yet missing-the-point defense of Beans, that "everyone does it", is not one that L.L. Bean can even use, which I suppose is the point. A lot of people buy from Beans do so thinking they are engaging in a transaction with an accountable, even good, business. As that slips away, no amount of PR dollars can patch that. Finally, this behavior, even though many do it, is a virus from which the inevitable remedy, greater legalize and contracts and non-disclosures, which we have seen as a response to Microsoft's predatory behavior in the '80's and '90's in the technology sectors, becomes a permanent tax on all business as well as a barrier to innovation. We accept locks on our doors and cars because theft is widespread. "Everyone does it." But I still resent that I have to spend as much time on security as I do. We should be really mad at people who take things, especially when big people take things from little people, even if the practice is common.
Well, for what it's worth, I ordered my first pair of Eliza B flip flops last week. All we can do is vote with our dollars. Shame on you, LL Bean!
Dear Cecil:
What bothers me even more than LLB knocking off your product is the way they mistreated you. Taking your samples under false pretenses, and then refusing even to return your phone calls is the height of sleaziness. I'm frankly utterly shocked that Bean would operate that way, and I'm glad this is coming out into the light so we can all decide whom we'd prefer to do business with!
Seems like a common occurrence these days something that is designed well and is successful, some folks think they have Carte Blanche to exploit them with there knockoffs. everyone wants to get on the money train anyway they can.
On Facebook, L.L. Bean wrote their official response: "Our Maine Isle flip flop has been a best seller for years and features our original design and patterns. ^LB"
To Anonymous who posted at 10:44. I'm curious about something although you make a good point about the canvas tote.
However, do you think it's an acceptable business practice to call a small business owner under (what sounds like) false pretenses, ask for a sample of his product and then produce the knock offs from the sample you couldn't even buy from him? I'm not questioning producing the knock-offs, I'm questioning the practice of calling, asking for samples & then not have the courtesy to return phone calls. That seems very shady.
Apparently these big companies haven't yet realized the impact social media can potentially have on their customers.
Muffy, Thank you for the effort you put into The Daily Prep and, specifically, for posting this article. After reading it, I looked carefully at the item descriptions in the latest catalog that, coincidentally, arrived in my mailbox yesterday. Every single description that I glanced at said, "Imported." How disappointing. Thanks to you, I've been paying more attention to things like this lately.
I have an idea for you: post more articles highlighting American companies that originally produced some of the products featured in the latest catalogs (L L Bean, Land's End, etc.). I would love to spend my money on American-made products than the foreign-made knockoffs of lesser quality, but I'm not very educated/experienced on what those products might be. I readily admit that I planned on ordering a pair of L L Bean's flip flops this Spring, but will now order them from Eliza B., thanks to you.
I am a fan of the originals. It is a shame they can't come up with their own ideas.
Mr. Lyons' story sounds so much like what Wal-Mart does to potential vendors, with the exception that Wal-Mart doesn't manufacture anything, they just sell shoddier and shoddier merchandise. The stores of how they treat(ed) suppliers are no legion and some are legends in their own right. I am very sorry to hear all this about L.L. Bean because a tory like this puts them into the same category as all the other merchants who "cheat" to remain competitive. As someone who always wanted to make "the preppy pilgrimage" to the flagship store in Freeport, ME, I will now have to seriously reconsider if I will even bother.
Mr. Lyons, if you read this post, I just made a purchase from your company and I found out about here at THE DAILY PREP blog. Doing business with your representative over the phone was a genuine pleasure and I was quite happy to be able, once again, to be able to purchase apparel directly from an American manufacturer. I am retired from the military and all of my uniforms, shoes, boots and other gear was U.S. made. I will gladly pay more to be able to buy from companies like yours, with quality products and the OUTSTANDING customer service I received during my over-the-phone ordering. I wish you much continued success.
Paul Connors
Randolph, NJ
Just a small point to anon. 10:44: The L.L. Bean tote is a reproduction of the canvas bags used in ice harvesting from around the turn of the last century. I have found references to these bags as far back as the 1890's, yet the Bean tote was not introduced until the 1940's. Many companies have made this type of bag over the years, but Beans may be the most famous version.
You've got me reading my clothing labels now, Muffy! I just discovered that the new nightgown I love so much from (Swedish-American manufacturer) Hanna Andersson was made in Peru. I don't begrudge a human being a fair day's labor, regardless of their nationality but I do strongly object to one American company stealing a design from another (after that brazen gesture they made of requesting samples). So ends my flip-flop relationship with LLB.
My late father-in-law, Philip Geiger, co-founded the American clothing company Willis & Geiger with his brother Howard shortly before WW II.
In addition to making clothing with its own label, the company made private-label garments for LL Bean. Phil often traveled to Freeport to meet with Leon Gorman to discuss designs and take orders for the upcoming season.
Price was always secondary to quality and utility. The fabrics were virtually bulletproof and the stitching and construction second to none. It was all designed and constructed in New York City.
The business is long gone, sold upon Howard's death to an entrepreneur who embellished the company's history with tall tales before selling it on to Lands End, which promptly destroyed the brand.
Yes, I guess the clothes were expensive even then. But the price points weren't ridiculous, and they were accessible to anyone who realized that a wardrobe only required a few things, as long as they were the very best of their kind.
The reality is, the Chinese manufacturer is likely stealing the sandal design from LL Bean and will sell them all over Asia (and through Walmart) for $5.99.
This kind of thievery has been working for decades. It used to take much longer to copy, produce and market the knockoffs, giving the originator some time to earn a profit. Now they seem to do it overnight.
The only solution is to keep overhead low, workmanship high, and innovate faster than the copiers can copy.
Just got my Bean catalog today, and to crown all they aren't showing even one OCBD shirt for women. I consider this the knell of impending doom. Everything has floppy collars, too many stripes and solids in icky dark colors that don't go with anything.
A lot of the other offerings strike me as "Old Navy" trying to be "Eileen Fisher." Has anyone actually worn this stuff to see how unflattering and sloppy it looks on? Worst of all, there is no longer even a pretense of utilitarian function in most of the women's items.
When I saw things like an untucked shirt hanging out below a model's blazer I was totally grossed out. Just because that's being done by youngsters who don't believe in clothes that fit, and apparently don't own a mirror either doesn't make it attractive. Just. Yuck.
Talbots and Orvis have increasingly moved this way, too, with the result that ALL these companies' clothes now look alike; if I had to name the look, how about "BoBo wannabe?" Prep it is not!
Thank you, Muffy, for showcasing so many interesting and authentic alternatives.
Um,
Wow!
I remember reading many years ago an article about Victoria's Secret doing this exact same thing to a woman with a bra they liked.
Unbelievable.
It is an admirable task you set yourself to in advising your readers about prep clothing and other associated items. A buyer should be aware of a product's origins and content. And of late there is great nostalgia for the quality and style which engendered these articles as their copies fail to delight. I would only suggest to Messrs. Lyon and Patrick that we are all beholden to those who have gone before us.
As a kid in a Southern California beach and sailing town, I grew up wearing Scott of Hawaii flip-flops, whether the all-leather version or the one with the soft nylon toe-strap. That brand of sandals was on my feet long before Eliza B existed. The Scotts came from Marblehead, Mass. to the Territory of Hawaii in 1932; my mom bought me my first kiddie pair at Liberty House in Honolulu (another fine department store long gone) in the late 1960's. Eliza B's "Leather Man Basic Sandal" is a clear "knock-off" of Scott's "Milo" and "Leahi" men's sandals. Perhaps the Islands don't cross the minds of Eliza B's largely New England/Atlantic customer base, but the similarity's clear as a glassy wave to me.
As for the belts of KJP, I'm sure many of your readers like me made the same Turk's Head and other braided belts, lanyards, wrist bands, etc. during holidays and in local city Rec Dept. craft classes. I still wear a couple of the belts I worked, and I had my local shoemaker put leather tongues on them to preserve the knotted ends.
Let's not kid ourselves: both companies sell to a tiny niche market, and their owners protest too much. Neither Eliza B's nor KJP's customers will disappear for the basic reason that their customers want to purchase both the real quality and the perceived status inherent in the product. Yes, I know- the latter desire is a regrettable and not-to-be spoken-of aspect of the grubby retail trade. Yet both business owners might more wisely focus on the motivations of those who do appreciate their products. That method is, after all, the time-honored strategy of growing a cachet for purveyors of all expensive discretionary items. Of course, if the joy of creating luxury goods of fine design and workmanship (and excellent profit margins) has paled for Lyon and Patrick, if they are shocked and not a little envious of those "huge" orders racked up by L.L. Bean and Lands' End on the backs of their "unique" products, and if they find themselves concurrently desiring larger houses and cars for their efforts, then they ought to sell their companies to the highest bidder...in classic American business style.
Might someone help me understand the offense at the reference to "moo goo gai pan." If a call center was moved to Maine, and someone wrote, "Citibank executives can enjoy their lobster and chowder," I would see that as engaging writing. What am I missing?
@larsd4 - While I agree that fast-rip off companies force all vendors to innovate quickly (as is the case with both KJP and Eliza B.), and that all companies evolve from the past, I believe the point to this piece is in the final paragraph: "We all stand on the shoulders of giants. And we have come to expect cheap, no-name knock-offs of famous brands. But when the famous brands themselves do the knocking-off so shamelessly, and then shift production away from the United States as part of the process, while spending their vast PR and marketing dollars on highlighting their own (increasingly tenuous) US-credentials ("Maine Isle Flip-Flops"), at the least consumers ought to be very aware of the choices they are making."
@billsburg,
I agree that it appears very under handed. Knowing how big companies work, i'm sure it wasn't as machiavellian as it appears. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that they reviewed it, among probably 500 other items and decided to just make it themselves. After running financial modeling, margins, expected price point were the deciding factors. Now, in big companies the individual does not take as mush responsibility as let's say a small company /owner operator vendor. If you're the account rep would you call back and break the bad news? "Oh, sorry Eliza B. we ran the numbers and it doesn't work, we're going to re-produce it ourselves"... Would you make that call? Chances are you would not.
Well, you see, I wouldn't have to make that call.
If I were the account rep and going to be under-handed, I would keep it to myself. I would buy the flip flops (after all, it isn't like they cost $240 a pair) - not call the owner and ask for free samples. Then I would run all the analysis to see what the bottom line is...completely unnecessary to involve the small business owner at all unless I was seriously interested in pursuing a business relationship with him.
In response to Greenfield's 5:28 post:
LL Bean has a modest but nice selection of women's OCBDs online, and they also have pinpoint oxfords (not button down). I have several of the OCBDs and recently tried one of the pinpoints at the same time I ordered similar shirts from BB. Both the LL Bean and the BB shirts were made in Malaysia. The quality was comparable. The fit of the LL Bean was superior and it was about 1/2 the cost of the BB shirts, which were purchased as a '2-for' special. The LL Bean OCBDs are available without the no-iron finish, which is increasingly difficult to find. Although I agree that LL Bean is offering many questionable options (and also sgree that their treatment of Mr Lyons was awful and will continue to order my belts and flip flops from Mr Lyon's company), being petite in both height and girth, I have a limited option of classic clothing suppliers to choose from, so have been grateful that LL Bean has continued to offer a selection, though limited, in petite sizes.
Bitsy
Is it more moral to buy an American owned product made overseas or a foreign owned products made in this country? Or for that matter, it there a difference in an imported product if it is from China (or at least Hong Kong) or from, say, Germany? These issues seem to have a moral question to answer or so some of the contributions suggest.
For what it's worth, many products here mentioned are made in factories, which in the United States, were "manned" mostly by women. Women are the ones making shirts in China or Malaysia just as they used to be here in the states. The real irony is when the ones who still make such things in this country happen to be Asian immigrants.
Really, this is all very confusing.
I doubt many corporate executives in the past had particularly high moral standards regarding either their employees or their products. But I wonder, is it more moral to buy an American owned product made overseas or a foreign owned product made in this country? Likewise, is it better to buy an imported product from China or from, say, The Netherlands?
for what it's worth......has anyone stopped to think that not only does the ripping off of small American Companies samples and then copying their designs like Eliza B, not only affect these small companies, LL Bean is also hurting and taking income away from the Eliza B sales reps that live in Maine, NH, Vermont, Mass, RI and Conn as well as other areas! Living, working and trying to survive in this economy is tough enough, never mind your "neighbors' sticking their hands into your wallet....shame on you LL BEAN!
Equally disconcerting to see a decidedly KJP'esque looking belt being sold at a chain store in Finland.
http://www.lindex.com/fi/naiset/gwyneth-paltrow-in-modern-preppy/6743744/Vyoe/?styleId=23340259
I'm seeing stars right now... as an American Company, with historic roots, you'd think they'd jump at selling those rad made in the USA sandals. Seriously, how much more could they have made with those crappy Chana versions. Honestly, I don't wear thongs, never have and never will. But I think I'll buy some of those Eliza B's for everyone I know. I'm done with LL Bean... no more boots and bags for myself and gifts for my family and friends. DONE! I'll just get their old made in the USA stuff of ebay like everyone else who wants clothing that is timeless and will last forever. I'm so angry at this dirty low down rotten behavior... That Eliza B. Lady must be PISSED! I hope to God she tears LL Bean's ass up with her lawyers!!! Go Girl!
The Blue Willow china at Mt. Vernon, Virginia, was imported from China.
Wow, poor Cecil. Rest assured my flip-flops will not be coming from the knock-off company. Imitation is the highest form of flattery but there is a line and that was not only crossed, but stomped on. As a side note, I wasn't thrilled about the "moo goo gai pan" comment either. As an adoptive parent of a minority child I've become a bit more sensitive though.
In the more mainstream fashion industry, knocking things off is standard operating practice. Christian Dior/Versace/DKNY/whoever comes out with a new line, and shortly thereafter people knock it off, usually in the Far East. Of course, they then bring out an even newer line. The name designers always have business, because mainstream fashion is all about having this season's latest look. In the world of non-fashion, traditional clothing, people like Eliza B., unfortunately, don't have that advantage. BUT, consider: how many other people have knocked off L.L. Bean's duckbooots? Or consider Brooks Brothers ... half the items in a traditional men's closet are knockoffs of something Brooks Brothers originated at some point between 1900 and 1965.
Just a quick fact check:
And then there is this example: when Ralph Lauren launched their Rugby line, they "copyrighted the name of several previously existing rugby supply stores and organizations, including Barbarian Rugby and USA Rugby"
Take this as evidence of the unreliability of Wikipedia as a source (or maybe not: that sentence is now gone).
The claim is nonsensical. You can't copyright a name. Yes, you can protect one as a trademark, but: a quick check of the USPTO database reveals (a) no registration by Ralph Lauren of a trademark in "USA Rugby" or "Barbarian Rugby" and (b) several registrations of the same terms by other people and organizations, which appear to be rugby leages and the like.
@Anonymous, Thank you for the comments. You may find Barbarian Rugby Wear, Inc. v. PRL Holdings USA, Inc., 06-CIV-2652 (S.D.N.Y.) interesting, including this document.
Sad. Outsourcing of white collar jobs, as well as manufacturing, has always been a sore spot of mine. I remember my father ranting and raving about it back in the 70's when I was a kid. I long for the days when everything was made right here on American soil. The quality was much better. We avoid foreign-made items and stores that sell them as much as possible. I'd rather pay twice as much for an item knowing it was made in America. --Holly in PA
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