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| Revised, December, 2012 |
The characteristics of each stage are as follows:
Crucible
- A company serves demanding clients in authentic environments significantly better then competitors.
- The company’s founder is hands on.
- Other people often love the products without necessarily recognizing the company that made it.
- Fiercely passionate customers, who are "in the know", are very loyal to the company.
- The company has significantly higher prices than competitors.
- Quality is paramount.
- Customers can still call or email and get the owner (and often work through any problems).
- Some new products are added.
- The company has widely recognized popular and unique items.
- Great pride is taken in the brand.
- Items are expensive, but high quality.
- New items, extensions of old, are added.
- Companies gain increasing brand recognition well beyond passionate base.
- A shot term flattening of growth can cause panic.
- The company is often under new management.
- The new management purges many of the old employees and suppliers/branded vendors.
- Companies in this stage are very interested in new categories of customers, and take the existing customer base for granted - many loyal customers find themselves buying less and less.
- The new management seeks to "leverage the look and the feel of the brand and brand experience" by lowering the quality and increasing the channels, supported by heavy marketing, including social media outreach.
- Vendors open mall stores, for example, in this stage.
- There is significant confusion from traditional customers.
- Some classics remain (but fewer and fewer).
- There are wild fluctuations of prices (higher prices, then massive sales).
- New products are low quality and relatively expensive.
- The companies increasingly outsource production to low-cost providers.
- A cash grab company has a significant PR budget, first spent trying to differentiate the company from their past, then relentlessly trying to invoke it.
- Long time customers start to experience return-fatigue
- There is a big opportunity for upper management to personally cash in with a one-time windfall, sacrificing long-term employees and customers in the process.
- Companies are no longer differentiated in the marketplace.
- They shift, almost overnight from an external market perception, from relevant and interesting to irrelevant and over-exposed.
- They bear no resemblance to their original selves.
This chart, as always, is subject to calibration. While I take full responsibility (and blame), I have also incorporated ideas from past comments.
74 comments:
When I looked at this list I noticed that many of the stores that used to be iconic have moved to the far right and this seems to coincide with the popularity of the brands with teens and twenty-somethings. Is this the fate of popularity among youth?
Great post- and I agree with you! Would it be helpful to list the items that are still worthwhile to purchase at particular stores? For example, from LLbean now I just purchase mens sweaters, totes ( they have gotten more expensive...) and ragg wool socks. I do have some items from 10-20-30 years ago... thanks!
Hi I'm a teenage girl. And I consider my self preppy. During the summer my mother nearly forces me into short selves, I take pride in my old Sperrys, I love a good sweater and a nice OCBD with some navy chinos. I live for that stuff.
I was curious about what you'd suggest, since I like Abercrombie alot. I know of all of the other brands and I've given most of their clothes a chance. No other store besides Abercrombie has "tailored" and flattering fits. I kind of disagree with the chart, personally.I think Abercrombie is just more aware of modern fits. Many of the clothes are very heritage oriented, they just fit... better, at least on me.
Am I not preppy? Classic clothing is classic clothing. No?
I think what's interesting is that the majority companies that were listed under crucible,iconic, and precious are accessory company rather than general clothing companies. I wonder if part of this has to do with the preppy trend happening(prepsters?) and these companies are putting out more product to appeal to this category of consumers.
Kyle,
I suspect some of the answer may be that the vacating of L.L. Bean and Ralph Lauren (and Lands' End) from this center iconic area (high quality/value) has happened relatively quickly, and the segment has not yet been filled, either by the migration of existing vendors or the establishment of new ones.
The prep culture, so to speak, focuses on exceptional quality and practicality – they are unlikely to go with what is “in” now or ship off production to cheaper countries/using cheaper material but rather, sticks to tried and tested classic designs and focusing on quality in their products which are meant to be used for many years. To put it bluntly, brands like Abercrombie are focused on selling cheaper products in bulk to the masses, products which are trendy and not meant to last the test of time.
Small companies which are growing and seek expansion (ala LL Bean’s development over the years) may come to a point where the needs of shareholders and capital gain are of utmost importance over the original founder’s vision, in which catering to the mass market and lowering quality is a far better option for profitability rather than catering to their traditional client base, which is a much smaller market share. The growth of the consumerist culture in the United States definitely helps with catering to this new market share of consumers. In essence it is a clash of consumption cultures between two very different market shares.
This comes at a great time, since I've been wondering generally about quality, having bought a shirt for the first time in years from Lands End. I remember the sailboat days. I really used to like them, but it's just a nothingburger going on there now.
Abercrombie at one point WAS preppy. That is why it is on this list. Is it preppy now? No. I ordered some items from L.L. Bean and thought it would be an excellent investment. Free shipping and khaki jeans for $35! Sign me up! I probably would have ordered the jeans regardless of quality. I am a big boy. I thought they would have last a lot longer than they did. I wish I had got in on the days of when things lasted.
I continue to be confused by comments about clothing not lasting as long as it used to. Mine does: no frayed collars, etc. I have a sneaking suspicion that American laundry detergents and washing machines are designed to do this intentionally. I can assure you that this is not is not the case in Europe.
Interesting analysis. I'm happy to say that I've never even heard of some of the firms on the chart. The companies on the left offer novelties for those interested in such things. Novelty, however, is not a Trad virtue. Some of the companies on the right will probably be off the chart the next time around.
I will stick with J. Press, Brooks Brothers, L.L. Bean, and Lands' End, as I have done for 40-odd years. They still provide the basic, minimalist wardrobe items that I require.
As always a great, thought-provoking post. I was reminded by the article I read last night regarding Talbot's return to its' roots of traditional clothing for mature women, in light of hiring a new CEO and Trudy Sullivan's ouster. Sorry, Talbots, but for this former customer, you're a day late and a dollar short. I stopped shopping there over a decade ago, and have no plans to return.
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view/20220807talbots_new_owner_taps_vitamin_shoppe_exec_as_ceo/srvc=business&position=also
Abercrombie is neither preppy nor classic. It's a lot of fun, especially for the younger members of the middle-class mall crowd, but it's a creation of a marketing department selling sex and celebrity-infuenced fashion. Neither of these two things have any place in an ivy/classic/prep sartorial ethos, let alone a wardrobe
I hear the word "Trad" a lot. I'm going to make myself look ignorant here, but what does it mean?
I love these graphs you come up with, you put a lot of effort into them. Can you tell me what you used to do/do as a profession?
Interesting to see that V-V is already in the cash grab part of the graph (as I believed they should be). As I mentioned once before, I was in their Short Hills, NJ store and it seems as if ALL of their merchandise is made in CHINA and of low(er) quality.
Shep and Ian seem to have mastered mass market retailing of gimmicky goods - all of low quality and positioned their company to be sold. It reminds me of when the old Banana Republic was sold to The GAP and in short order, everything that made it so unique was lost.
My advice to those who claim to be preppy dressers is simple: AVOID VINEYARD VINES!
Paul Connors
@Susan R:
For some:
The term "Trad" avoids the clownish/nursery school connotations of ”Preppy" and the Eastern Seabord exclusiveness of "Ivy".
For others:
Trad is an umbrella term that subsumes both Preppy and Ivy.
REPOSTING:
Bean is not on the right track at all and I'm about to send them a very long letter.
I am a conservative (not trendy) dresser and I always loved Bean's high quality " conservative' products of the past such as a nice tweed blazer with jeans or chinos and nice blouse and loafers. Those items would last a lifetime and I didn't mind paying a little more such style and quality. But, in the last 5 years, opening up their website or catalog is like looking at any typical trendy tacky department store's fashion.
My biggest complaint today is that they have nothing in inventory to purchase except the trendy seasonal junk. I did a little research and discovered that Bean decided to downsize their staff, close some of their stores and warehouses and only keep a small supply of seasonal items in inventory. I understand that the economy is tough for everyone but the marketing firm that is advising them is clueless about Bean and the type of customer that shops there. Many of us can wear Bean's clothing year round in some fashion whether it's a polo shirt under a sweater or sweatshirt or a cotton turtleneck with shorts. Many of us travel to different climates throughout the year and like having a few coats and gear to choose from year round. Sure, there may not be a need to carry millions of down coats year round but having none available year round is ridiculous for an outdoor retailer. Yet, they have limited to no quantity of these ' essential' items. I've noticed too that many of their items that suddenly appear on their website are sold out the same day without even one review???? They have some 'summery' inventory like 3/4 sleeve tshirt that won't even arrive until late fall. They have lots of bathing suits though but most folks would not be purchasing expensive bathing suits at Bean during this economic crisis. Bathing suits are too specific and are not even versatile like polos or chinos or loafers or boat shoes.
Bean's prices are very high for the quality of product they are selling. "Free Shipping" means that they included shipping in their new pricing strategy. Did Bean actually believe that we intelligent ' Beaners' would fall for that? Their shipping for an entire order rarely ever exceeded 13 dollars and now I'm paying 10 dollars more for each item shipped. Obviously, they are making lots of extra money with this strategy! Their jeans and other pants have so much " one-way-stretch lycra spandex in them vs cotton that within a few hours of wearing them, they have stretched two sizes. Their pants are at least one inch shorter this year and not even the petites like myself can wear them. Is this their idea of cutting costs?
Their color palette reminds me of cheap retail store merchandise with those nauseating pastels and drab drab blues and greens.
When I shop at a store like Bean, I'm not looking for cheap and tacky trendy clothing. If I wanted that I would just go to Walmart for a ' Whole Lot Less'. Their competitors like Bauer and Orvis have also resigned to this same undependable cheap outsourcing.
Personally, I think Bean should fire that marketing analysis firm and refer to their old business model to attract the type of people who appreciated Bean's quality and style. I think they panicked too soon and made a horrible decision to downsize in the wrong way.
The local Bean outlet in my area closed in July and I'm truly disappointed because I could usually find older stock in there. Like another poster, I'm now scouring Ebay for older items.
Bean has also become rather defensive in their customer service and is not as gracious and easy to work with--- another redflag that indicates they have become just another typical cheap, greedy, American retailer that pays pennies on the dollar for their merchandise and sells at over-inflated prices.
SO SO disappointed. Where to shop now? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Ditto what the above poster says about Bean--I was very disappointed at the COLORS offered in the most recent catalog; they just don't GO with anything, which makes them unbuyable!
Orvis has become just absurdly overpriced for their now-lackluster quality, and I cancelled their catalog recently.
You even have to watch the cuts, fits, and sizing at Brooks these days (sigh). I've taken to wearing the men's polos from them in order to get the sleeves as long as they used to be and the fit not skin-tight; FYI, a current Brooks men's S has the identical proportions as a very-vintage Lacoste women's M--I spread them both out and measured! Fabrics are much more durable as well. Whatever it takes . . . !
Must say I got some OCBD's at Land's End this month which are like I remember them.
@Greenfield - Are the OCBDs Men's or Women's that you bought from Lands' End? And as an aside, I was recently measuring my Women's Bean Norwegian sweater from the 80s in size L, and it too was identical to the Men's version in size M.
I think the chart is generally right on. Of course, a persistent issue is that (almost) every brand on the left side of the chart is a tiny boutique that makes just one type of item. I don't know that a Brooks Brothers or Ralph could ever compete with a company like Lotuff--even with greater oversight and domestic production. If the point is that companies should each be making just a few things, and making them very well, I don't object to that. But if not, the ranking might need to be curved for difficulty (making a well-tailored suit v. sewing together a cotton belt).
If it were my chart, I'd probably switch Brooks and Ralph Lauren, or at least knock BB to the far right. I find basically anything other than OCBDs and perhaps some of the suiting at Brooks to be dreadful. The quality is just terrible--visibly bad. And since they seem to have introduced an entire product range aimed at younger guys, the clothes look like RL's Rugby, i.e. cheap, cartoonish abstractions of preppy. Polo has plenty of that, too. But I can buy a much, much wider range of product with confidence in the quality and fit of the item. And Polo seems to have a greater number of items that are available year after year after year without change (I've been buying the same sweaters for nearly 10 years, and the fit, style, and quality hasn't changed a bit--except when they nixed the foldover cuff). I ordered a pair of field pants from Brooks recently, and when they arrived realized that they (inexplicably) had a very low rise and skinny fit. The fact that these characteristics were not even advertised in the product description indicates that this may be a new normal for Brooks.
Vineyard Vines is right where it belongs. The product may not be hideously bad. But it is, to an item, totally derivative: same clothes, new logo, but with bad quality (and lots of awful colors). Their men's bathing suits are perhaps the only thing worth purchasing--and even they are vastly overpriced, a novelty, and a knockoff (of Vilebrequin).
In the future, I think it would be helpful if the chart could show each company's trajectory from year to year (or if prior charts were posted alongside the new.) Movement is probably just as important as current position. I'd also love to hear your thoughts on how companies can move from right to left (and I'm sure those leftmost firms would, too). Those thoughts are sprinkled throughout your blog, and can be inferred from your descriptions of the various life cycle stages, but I'd be interested to read your how-to guide.
The only time I purchase anything from LL Bean is at their outlet store on the sales rack. I just got two pairs of trousers for eight dollars and I have to get them hemmed to the proper length.
Brooks Brothers just opened an outlet store nearby and I will give a report soon.
The Barbour outlet is near too, and I just got a Beaufort jacket for 80 dollars!
Hi, Muffy!
The OCBD's from Land's End were the women's--cut like I had in high school, neither diaphanous nor sculpted!
One up-and-coming company to consider is Jack Wills--they have a store on Main St. in Westport and I've gotten some good things. The quality is so far excellent.
By and large I agree with your assessments. The one exception is Leatherman/Eliza B. I have now received two men's belts from them and I have to say that they seem cheaply made with less than top notch materials. If these are representative of their products I am surprised you are so complimentary of them.
Dear Muffy:
I will need to contribute piecemeal because I have mixed feelings on this chart...some of the comparisons are incongruous, e.g. LL Bean and Lotuff.
One has always been a medium-scale retailer and the other caters to a different, certainly smaller, market, among other differentiating characteristics which render them very different animals, as it were.
Yes, I too think Bean's quality has declined but the criticisms commonly seen here are a tad hyperbolic ( excluding the ludicrous, kitschy LLB signature line). I find that their quality is better than the American average ( think Gap, et al.) and often a fair deal when on sale. Having said that, I do note that their prices have suffered about 20 percent inflation this year on numerous items with nothing to merit such an increase.
Bean is also, in almost all respects, far ahead of its main competitor, Lands' End, whose products have become mere simulacra of what they used to be.
Their customer service is their sole distinguishing feature harkening to its heyday. Thus, the two should trade places on your chart.
You're always a good read, Ms. Aldrich.
Thanks!
w.g.
I agree with the above assessment of Leatherman. The quality product has fallen from just a couple years past. Try The Belted Cow out of Maine for the "D" ring belts. The leather tab Belted Cow belts look like some out of the Industrial Age no style or personality at all on the leather they select.
Talbot's can be totally eliminated. When they took the Red Doors off my Talbot's I could read between the lines.
Claudio has restored Books Brothers to a Ben Franklin experience. I'm stocking up now on the traditional cut OCBD before I see them vanish.
LL Bean. I'm really surprised they even have any customers today.
Surprised to see Saint James ranked so high....my experience recently is that the quality is falling.
Extremely nice presentation! Did you attend Wharton Business School? Not joking it's really nice. And accurate.
Ladies I have an 80's LL Bean men's medium Norwegian navy/white birds eye up for grabs in great condition!
contact me!
This chart is brilliant. I absolutely agree as to where those companies stand right now. Old standards like Talbots, L.L. Bean, and Lands' End are particularly sad cases. I'm not so pleased with wear Barbour seems to be headed. I keep crossing retailers off my list. It is particularly difficult to accept the changes (not for the better) even at lower prices when you were accustomed to what these companies used to be.
Mighty Cross About It
10 years ago, I worked as a technical consultant for a Lilly store and the sizing went awry about that time. The items made in China (gasp)were of lower quality and there was no consistency in sizing between items, pants vs, skirts, for instance.
Sad to see and Talbots is a bit of a joke.
When I was growing up in "reduced circumstances", I was lucky enough to have a family who recognized and appreciated anything which was made well.
From what I've observed, most people don't care about such things anymore. Perhaps this is smart on their part because when the average annual income per person is now, what? About $30,000? A lot of people are struggling and when they do have disposable income, they want to spend it on tech toys and stuff they can throw away when they get tired of it.
Maybe the management at companies like LLBean, Vineyard Vines, etc. realize the only way to stay in business is to make cheap, throwaway stuff...after all, the only people who seem to know the difference these days probably represent a very small minority of the population. Companies aren't going to make but so much money catering to people who can spend $500 for a pair of casual shoes or $300 for blouse - but who will wear both for the next 10, 15, or 20 years.
Having said all that, I still don't see how Talbots has managed to stay in business. Their stuff has been terrible for years. And the U.S. Olympic team shirts with the big Ralph Lauren "pony" was tacky, tacky, tacky. RL should be ashamed of itself. I was embarrassed for the kids who had to wear it....
*sara*
I would like to add that the Letaherman belts I ordered recently (all three of them) were NOT true to size. I ordered them in size 42 and each came in at some measurement between 41 1/4 inches and 41 and 1/2. On a pair of pants or shorts, with shirts tucked in, that extra 1/4 to 1/2 inch can and does make a difference.
Also, as much as I hate to say this, some of the Brooks Bros. merchanise, especially the polo shirts have diminished in the quality of the sizings. First, for men, if you are large across the shoulders and chest, AVOID their outlet polos as they ARE cut smaller and skimpier than those found in the retail stores. Many of the men's sweaters, including the cotton knits, as well as others seem to be cut on the small side, even in L, XL and XXL.
In the Short Hills mall store (Millburn, NJ) many of the less formal and dressy trousers carried in stock are the "Milano" cut which has a very straight leg and little extra material that makes for true comfort. I think BB is, as the graph shows attempting to cater to a younger, "slimmer" clientele. At least, that's the impression I take away every time I leave the Short Hills store.
One areas where BB has not compromised is in their men's shoes, especially in the dress calfskin and shell cordovan offerings. The classic tassel loafers in both calf and shell cordovan are made by ALDEN Shoes for Brooks Brothers. I recently took advantage of the Summer Sales to buy a new pair of White Bucks. BB owns the English shoe company PEAL & Co. and they offer very high quality shoes and just recently, I noted on their website that ALLEN EDMONDS is now also manufacturing some men's shoes for BB.
In certain key areas, suchas men's suits, Brooks Brothers still harkens back to their heritage, but in many areas, such as the Non-Iron shirts, their shirts are not what they can and should be. Their classic OCBDs are, for me anyway, the standard by which I judge others and when I iron mine, I do so with such a heavy starching (and I do them myself) that they could stand up in the corner all by themselves.
Sadly, as others here have stated, too many of the stores we have all counted on in the past seem to have lost their way (at least in certain areas) and one wonders if our loyalty to these legacy brands and stores is not now somehow misplaced.
Paul Connors
RL has long since lost me with the oversize logo and tacky "crest" phenomenon; that's not classic, it's self-parody.
This is an interesting conversation. As a small business (Clothing) owner that aspires to make it onto the left side of your list and live there as long as possible. I can tell you from the trenches, quality is a tough tough road, downhill flows towards low price, quick turnaround and almost everything pulls in that direction. There will always be a market for quality, but cheap mass market is probably a better business model – with enough initial capital and if the brand is wrapped correctly, it can fairly quickly be self -referential enough to the point that it becomes self-propelled. If you chose quality, such as we have, it is a battle. You have to win the love molecule by molecule. First off: high quality, low quantity is riddled with premiums. – The direction of evolution in the garment industry is towards mass, so finding cutters and sewers that are good and will take on a small line is hard. Because everything in some manner is a math problem and you are going to have to put an equal sign somewhere, to go the quality road you have to be willing to work harder and walk longer and hold onto you integrity with all your might because people are always going to be showing you a shorter, cheaper path. You also have to realize it is a little bit of a marriage, if you intentionally do something to lose the trust there is forever going to be a question mark about it. The payoff is that when we walk into new stores, there is no misdirection, we don’t have to remembering to look people in the eye. It is all honesty. We are not taking hostages, if they don’t want it, we don’t ask again in nine different ways. We thank them for their time and move on. How my little story turns out won’t be answered for some time. There is a very good book – Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster, by Dana Thomas, that I highly recommend. In a nutshell, it explains how these once private, but now public fashion houses have cut costs to the point that they are left with a bunch of neutered product and the only way to increase shareholder value is to amplify the currency of the brand to the point where they sell purses (because they have a very high mark up) with the logo all over it. I am not saying cheap is bad. Quality is expensive & money doesn’t grow on trees yet and in actuality this discussion has too many variables to be boiled down. I am just advocating (If it is as simple as one man / woman) saying what you stand for and sticking to it, even when it is unpopular and hard. That is noble in my eyes.
Muffy - Another spectacular, informative and well thought out piece. Sadly while the hipsters, urban gays and trendsters used trad/ivy/prep as parody we suffer. I made the mistake of attempting to shop at Brooks Bros. in the Flatiron district of Manhattan today. I knew in advance the store was aimed at a younger (read: uninformed and foolish) crowd but nothing could have prepared me for the shock: Thom Browne dynamited the outhouse and what stuck to the walls was for sale. Then there's the help: prepster robots in too small slave-made clothing going sockless with leather oxfords seemingly begging for the clientele to buy to dress and blend in with them. Presently I am laboring under a misapprehension that this change at Brooks will be just a short-term failure in their long, storied history and perhaps they made poor quality uniforms for my ancestors during the Civil War (both blue and gray) and there was a considerable uproar during the Reconstruction with pillories and decapitations demanded. Aw Hell, if this is what Brooks et al. want to try let them fail and let my mind and clothing continue to fray...
Perhaps we should add a chart line that tracks companies that give you free items (KJP, Lotuff/Clegg, etc.) and where they end up on your chart.
To put companies like KJP 'ahead' of J. Press and Alden is to erode the credibility of your little corner of the internet.
I am surprised you didn't place Patagonia further to the right as well. Their items are now made in china, vietnam, etc and their product has expanded well beyond the realms of small, knowledgeable specialty retailers - now you can even buy their stuff at Dick's Sporting Goods. They used to be fiercely loyal and even protective of their retail partners. No longer. I know several specialty retailers that feel quite thrown under the bus as Patagonia has pursued a new priority: volume sales. Such a bummer, I still have one of their original snap fleeces from 1990.
One imagines that Tretorn has simply fallen off the right side of the list, even as Sperry keeps moving to the right.
Time was that Tretorn made great, functional, and reasonably priced tennis shoes. Since Puma took over, about 10 years ago now, the price of the classic Nylite has about doubled while the quality keeps dropping. The padded ankle collar is now just stitching without any padding. The soft lining inside is gone, leaving just the bare canvas, so going sockless isn't really an option now. The soft arch support is also gone completely. The heel counter has been altered so it is less supportive.
Now, the Nylite is mostly style, with little substance. The canvas models are now a dingy off-white, instead of being the previous white/white that would match one's white tennis outfit. The leather models have disappeared entirely, both the Nylite Leather and the Nylite XTL. Sigh.
There is still a market and demand for breathable canvas tennis shoes that also look good, and the Nylite Leather also sold well before Puma bought Tretorn. If Puma would remake the Nylites of old, they could do very well. The cost savings of Chinese manufacture now versus the Philippines in the 80s/90s can't be very great, yet the quality difference is obvious and sad.
Similarly, the Tretorn Rodlera handball/racquetball shoes with the gum sole for interior courts also have suffered from quality cuts. They also would do well if only Puma would re-focus on quality.
Sperry seem to be following in the same direction, with various cuts in quality and a reduced set of sizes -- all coupled with big price increases. In the past, many Sperry models also came in wide and narrow widths, but very few do so today. I did grab a pair of the classic CVOs last year, and they are holding up so far, but I was shocked at the price increase.
Its all a pity really.
@Anonymous 9:59 - Most vendors aspire to be in the middle. J. Press and Alden are in no way in an inferior position.
Wonderful chart!
My few comments:
When I sent Leatherman a question by email a few months ago, I got a one-word response without explanation that I was not comfortable with. If they are too busy or too important for me, well so be it, let them do without me.
The Brooks Brothers outlet stores are only good for socks and ties, IMHO.
I imagine LL Bean is trying to make as much money as they can, and aren't necessarily interested in pleasing the smaller segment of the population who bought from them 40 or 50 years ago.
@ Lee W. Johnston...
Thank you very much for offering everyone some much-needed perspective through your well-thought-out comment. It's easy to gripe about how so many retailers have "betrayed" us, but it's important to note that anyone in the business with even a shred of integrity is swimming against the current.
@Muffy...
Where exactly is the "sweet spot" in your chart? Clearly, anywhere along the high point of the "Quality" line is good for the consumers, but where should the retailers shoot for in order to find the best balance, and how can they stay there?
After looking at this chart I am curious as to where most of your female readers actually buy most of their clothes. I buy from Lands Ends and LL Bean, but also from stores like Ann Taylor and Coldwater Creek. Obviously they are not "preppy" stores but offer nice basic pants and button down shirts. Where is everyone actually shopping??
Count me among those customers who have been disappointed with Leatherman/Eliza B.
I had a question about custom shoes, and I tried calling them during business hours. Not only did no one answer, there was no answering machine ... ever, not on the several attempts I made several days apart. I was never able to speak with an actual person, let alone a robot. I sent my question via email and I received no response to that, either.
On my final order (one that should have been really easy) they neglected to send part of it, though they had charged me weeks earlier. I had to remind them, and when the items finally arrived more than a month later, I didn't get what I had ordered.
I think Leatherman/Eliza B. has terrible customer service; in fact there IS no customer service. I'd be hard pressed to make a future purchase.
OH, I'm so furious! I just spent $70 on a traditional striped shirt from Saint James and it is the cheapest construction and fabric I have ever seen. And I can't return it unless I want in store credit, but that obviously isn't something I would want. The hem is turned only once and a minimal top stitch to secure it is sewn so haphazardly that it will come out after only a couple washings, or even one wearing! The cotton is scratchy. I bought one a few years ago from Orvis which is highly superior in every way. PLEASE move Saint James to the far right or even take it off the list... I would hate to see someone waste their money like I just did!
Like others, I too have been very disappointed with recent quality of Leatherman. Materials and construction have been cheapened considerably over the last 12 months. Unfortunately, now no better than any generic, made in China, surcingle...
It must be so. In capitalism as it is today, things( here merchandise) no longer correspond to anything but the image in which it became known, alas.
See Aodorno, " The culture industry" ...for a start.
There are many new small manufacturers of high quality apparel in the United States. They may not have the pr/marketing budget of LL Bean, Lands Ends and the like, but they are worth seeking out. I am sure they would love your business! I believe this is preferable to lamenting the demise of the quality standards of large retailers.
I have to add that I will NOT allow a salesperson at BB who is dressed in the Thom Browne styles wait on me.
One attempted to do so the other day - he was perhaps 23 years old. As firmly and as politely as I could, I infomred him that I do not allow young men dressed as he was make suggestions to me as to what I should purchase. He seemed quite peeved and stormed off to sulk.
Such is the sense of entitlement the young have these days. One of these entitlements also appears to be a need not to be offended. He went and told the floor supervisor who came over and asked if "we had a problem." Whereupon I pointed out that I don't speak in the third person, that I didn't have a problem and perhaps he should instruct his sales people on how to dress like a BB professional." He pointed out that the young sales"person" was wearing Thom Browne designed for BB attire.
I chuckled and added: "just because one can dress a certain way doesn't mean that they should" and walked out of the store.
This is, I fear what happens to a storied brand that has been sold and re-sold too many times over the lat 20 years and is now owned by an Italian designer of eyeglass frames.
Paul Connors; I'd have bought a ticket to THAT exchange!! :)
I just got a copy of the BB "Back to Campus" catalog, now residing in my recycling bin. As "Bill the Cat" would say, "Ack! Thpppt!"
Some of y'all need to remember that nostalgia is an awfully cruel mistress.
My family has dressed in TRAD/WASPy/Preppy essentials for 3 generations, my children make 4. I agree with most of your list. I have a hard time accepting KJP on this list, let alone the rank you place on them. Tawdry bracelets were not worn by our parents, or our grandparents. Shouldn't your core product you produce be an essential? Must be the Scotch-Irish in me, but I just don't see the value.
@ Greenfield and Will Barrett:
It seems that the staff of the BB outlet in Flemington, NJ and some of the retail stores have taken their sense of self-importance to the sales process to what I consider childishly petulant extremes. The Thom Browne dressed metrosexual pretending to be a male salesperson was a case in point.
When I go to the Short Hills Mall BB store, there is a salesman there who has taken care of me for 25+ years. He recently went to Los Angeles on vacation and when I found out that was his plan, went to the store to present him with my personal check for a gift of a dinner and night on the town as my way of saying Thank You! for all of the care and attention he'd shown me over the years. I am not sure that folks do things like that anymore, but my Dad, a career army officer) bought all of his service and dress uniforms at BB from 1945 through his retirement in 1975 at the Madison Avenue flagship store. He had a salesman there who took care of him for his first uniforms as a commissioned officer through his final set of dress blues when he retired 30 years later.
My father started his career as a private at the beginning of WW II, received a battlefield commission and retired as a senior officer and he was responsible for my obtaining a BB Charge Account at the main store when I was 12. At 18, I assumed responsibility for all my bills there. I am glad my Dad did that and that he and my Mom and their families instilled in me a sense of how to dress. When I embarked on my own military career, I was actually stunned to see how badly military folks dressed when out of uniform. My Dad's sense of style out of uniforms and his foresight in teaching me about quality and "How to dress" helped me in just about every social occasion.
I think if my dad were still alive and buying at BB today, he'd be echoing some of the same negative comments other writers here have posted. And that sadly, is the cruel mistress Mr. Barrett referred to in his most recent post.
Paul Connors
I have a few KJP bracelets and my husband has a few KJP ties and we both reach for them first when getting dressed. I will be getting a belt soon. They are preppy, not trad, and aim younger, which I consider positives not negatives! They are made well, in the US, and are introducing a new generation to non-throw-away accessories.
My favorite ties are from KJP.
Keep in mind Preppies (Yes - I prefer that term) don't do shopping! We do sourcing and always have.
But what of language, Muffy? What of fatuous terms like "price point" and " go-to" rather than the more honest price and favorite that are losing currency these days? Are these nouveau catchphrases also not far from ( also cringe-worthy) "trad?"
These are media terms adopted, it appears, rather too facilely.
As an ancient philosopher said, " speak so that I may see thee."
Do not rely too much on your costumes, I say.
Paul Connors: Thank you for that wonderful story; it sounds like you personify the ideals Muffy is trying to perpetuate here. That was a lovely, gracious gesture to your long-time BB salesman.
Anonymous 8:17: You said a mouthful! What is happening to the English-language today is tragic. Anyone not speaking in acronyms and text-yawp already stands out in a crowd. I've become self-conscious about my conversation being sprinkled with literary allusions practically since birth, since today most of the people under 35 don't know what I'm referring to. But it cuts both ways--since I "killed my television" in 2008 I have no clue what they're talking about, either! ;) You're absolutely right that clothes are only a small part . . .
Good heavens. The mark of a gentleman is that he is polite to people that he doesn't need to be polite to.
Certainly the world is full of ignorance and vulgarity in clothing, language, behavior, speech, etc. But anyone who has the advantages of a good upbringing and education has a responsibility benefit others and to inspire in them the aspiration for something higher.
The point of nice clothing (and of good manners in general) is to make other people feel comfortable, not to prop up one's frail sense of self-worth by humiliating those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.
To w.g.'s and others' comments, I don't think the fact that companies that appear to be apples and oranges are included together on this list detracts from its usefulness.
This list (arbitrarily) measures various aspects of a company as it goes through its lifecycle, so it would make no sense for all companies to be of equal size and depth of product offerings. Perhaps the reason that the top ranked companies such as Lotuff have relatively little breadth is because they focus all of their energy perfecting just a few products. But it makes little sense for most readers to subsist exclusively on these niche brands, hence the inclusion of larger companies like LL Bean which do not offer the same quality but do offer some quality at a much lower price.
I have to add to the chorus of people less than fully satisfied by recent Eliza B /Leatherman purchases. I bought a pair of the ballet flats based mainly on the recommendations from this site right here. The fabric is great, and I absolutely love the sole, but the faux-leather lining material started to tear after a couple days of wearing. There is also a tiny bit of the edge of the fabric that has come unglued from under the sole. I still love them, and love the idea of custom fabric ballet flats, but I was disappointed that they are not destined to last longer. I want to get a pair in a wintery pattern, but just don't know if its worth the money, knowing they are so short-lived!
I do still love the belt and key chain I have from them, and haven't given up o the company yet!
@ LoveLee - In answer to the question you posed to The Daily Prep's female readers -- Because I wear a small petite size, it's difficult to find anything from most makers of good, traditional clothing -- the smallest size made by most is far too large for me. Several years ago, I found a tailor and had some suits made, including both skirts and slacks. These have proven well worth the time and money. I added a couple of suits from J. Crew recently when they were on sale. I still get OCBDs from LL Bean -- they have the washed oxfords in traditional cut in petite sizes without the no-iron finish which I hate -- and cotton polos and classic cardigans from Lands' End. I also fill in some tops and dresses from J. Crew and Brooks Brothers (only on sale, though). I used to rely of Ralph Lauren's petite line, but the quality of their offerings has been so bad the past 2 years I've stopped buying their clothes. I've also taken a hint from Kionon, of Kyoto Maiko, and have begun getting things from the boys' departments of traditional brands. And I have a very good dressmaker, without whom I would be lost.
One might keep in mind that nostalgia is a longing for things that never were, while tradition is merely what we did last year. Otherwise, we would be dressing our children in knickerbocker breeches, the more rebellious of whom would be running around with them unbuckled below the knees.
Ms. Aldrich,
Very well done. Your chart belongs in Professor Edward Tufte's books.
I apologize if you have dealt with these companies in other posts, but I am curious for your thoughts on Berle and Peter Millar, particularly for men.
Best regards
@Paul, Brooks isn't interested in their salesman, just dollars. They don't have the staff educated about their product. Hence, a lot of metrosomethings trying to sell what they wear. They are robots and don't want to find out what your needs are because they lack education of products and how to present themselves. BB must reflect on the guys who only shopped there for generations and position themselves on that ethos. BB had real haberdashers once, time to return. As a haberdasher of 25 years it was the education my stores owners gave daily that made selling easy and fun.
I fail to see how Orvis stays in business. The company is a mere shell of itself, cheap outsourced goods from the orient that fall apart within weeks of their purchase.
@ Gordon:
Thank you for your comments. As someone who has shopped at Brooks Brothers for many, many years and before the company had been sold TOO MANY times in the last 20, I have to add that the salesman who takes such good care of me is named CHRIS NEWELL. For any male readers here, or even women who may shop at the Short Hills mall store, I recommend him to all without reservation and with nothing but the highest compliments.
Chris is first and foremost a professional at what he does. Secondly, he is a gentleman who takes the time to truly get to know his customers. I was away for almost three years on military duty and walked back into the store and his first comment to me was: "Hello Mr. Connors! It's been a while, welcome back!" He has the memory of a computer, remembers people's preferences (mine is for repp and regimental ties) and has gone out of his way to order my hard to find shoe sizes. If merchandise is not available in stock, he will send it on to your home free of charge.
I've heard that despite the fact that many of the city stores are bigger that CHRIS is constantly ranked FIRST or SECOND in sales volume each month. This is a tribute to him and his loyal following. Each time I review a product purchase at the BB site, I always mention Chris Newell in my review because he has been such a big part of that purchasing experience.
If you are ever in NJ and want to see a real professional in action, a man who truly takes pride in who he is and how his customers matter, then go ask for him and see for yourself what is the standard by which all clothing sales professionals should be judged.
Paul Connors
Today my fall Orvis catalog arrived.
Noticed something immediately, Orvis really isn’t selling their goods this time around.
Orvis is basically a portal for high end goods, Holland & Holland, Barbour, and some high end Austrian Loden clothing supplier that I recognize from my time in Germany & Austria.
I wonder, the beginning of the end?
I have never purchased used clothing before but I must confess that I recently glanced at ebay and found several wonderful LL Bean wool sweaters made in Scotland and Norway and purchased two of them and a Pendleton wool trench..all for less than 100 dollars. I also found 100 percent cotton favorite fit LL Bean jeans ( now discontinued) and I gobbled them up as well. I can use them for gardening and save my other good jeans for casual wear. Why do most clothes today contain stretch? I suppose the stretch factor allows retailers to make clothing that is less size-specific. My belief is that if you need spandex in your clothing than you are probably purchasing the wrong style and size and should take a look in the rear-view mirror. :(
I read another one of Muffy's posts on Chinos and thought I would mention that in the past, I purchased Chinos from Eddie Bauer because I could get a style from them that didn't have on-seam pockets that flare. Since about 2005, their chinos and other cotton pants have been very cheap and poorly made that I quit buying them. I visited their website the other day and noticed that they have increased the length of their pants two inches! They claim that they are attempting to meet industry standards. I'm a petite 5'3 and their ' new standard petite' 30 inch inseam will not work for me as well as other petites. Previously, if I wanted a 30" inseam for heels all I had to do was purchase the regular length. Bauer has completely eliminated their petite demographic ( minus those who wear stilettos with their chinos and spandex jeans). Looks like for the time being, ebay will be my new resource for well-made quality clothing.
I couldn't agree with Michael Rowe more. I would have switched Ralph Lauren and Vineyard Vines around in the overall chart though, but that is a minor detail.
This comment is intended for the blog author rather than for general distribution. (But print if you wish.)
1. Fascinating and information rich. Your three curves convey the three business functions: finance (growth), marketing (PR), and production (quality). As you deftly show, when marketing surpasses production as a management priority, the company goes into a tailspin that is tough to reverse.
2. I wonder whether the growth curve should be green (the color of money) and the quality curve blue (as in true-blue); the choice of red for PR is great because its ascent is a warning that the company is about to descend.
3. Your X-axis is worthy of the HBR. Since your Y-axis is blank, you might label it, e.g., "Management Priority."
Personally, I stuck to J. Crews OCBD's for far to long. At one point, i considered them a great value, but after the third price increase and the fourth or fifth reduction in quality, I gave up on them. Frankly I'm not thrilled with any OCBD's on the market. I've started buying RL Polo's offering but only when I'm in town and they're at a discount chain (ie Marshals). at half the price they are worth my time. Brooks wouldn't be bad if the price, married quality.
I agree entirely with the first two fifths of the chart, although I will say that my Patagonia products are all excellent. I just remove the outer labels.
I'm a sixteen year old girl stuck in a tasteless generation. Most of my peers walk around in tight, unattractive clothing which is bought for: a.) the brand name; b.) the cheapness; or c.) because everyone else is wearing it. I find most young women my age consumed with clothing that shows off as much skin as possible: plunging necklines, holes in pants, cutouts in shirts. I often find that I cannot buy things from most stores because in general I just simply do not like anything they're selling. Most of the time, I find myself stealing my mother's and father's vintage clothes from the '70s. I swear I was supposed to be born in the golden age of prepdom; instead, I've been born in the age of trashdom.
Muffy, what do you think of Tommy Hilfiger?
I just read your "Elder Prep" post and then saw this post from several months ago. I couldn't agree more about the iconic prep clothiers from the 70s and 80s dying out or, even worse, trying to go "on the cheap." I am baffled as to why these clothiers remain somewhat true in men's clothing but have completely gone awry with women's clothing. I still have great women's shirts from Lands End that I bought in the mid80s - seersucker, madras, etc - that were cut in a classic, buttondown style. Nowadays, Lands End for women looks like a Banana Republic wannabe, trying to be trendy but failing miserably. LL Bean for women is better but still leaning toward the trendy and failing. What of classic, unisex preppy clothes?
I don't think you mentioned two women's shops from the 70s and 80s that sold classic clothes - The Tog Shop and Johnny Appleseeds. They are now a combined company, Appleseeds, and their clothing, while holding somewhat to classic lines, is cheaply made and sizing is unpredictable. I have several pair of khaki pants from Appleseeds - same style number, but different years' catalogs - and every single pair fits differently. Frustrating.
Brooks Brothers seems to be the latest to decide that men like classics from year to year but women apparently do not. I gave up on their women's line this year, as the prices were eye-popping and the clothes less classic than even last year's.
Wherefore "Elder Prep," for those of us entering the AARP years? Sure wish the stores of the past would reconsider their trend to be trendy.
I would like to mention that despite being a biggish chain, and seemingly focused on turnover, you can find a lot of prep styled items and very good quality at Jos A Bank. I am talking the mid and better quality items in blazers, sportcoats and the usual accessories like ties, shoes socks. They definitely have the best selection of bow ties. I don't work there but I am a pretty frequent customer.
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